Title: The Deep Focus Show
Show: The Deep Focus Show
Date: 2025-10-21
URL: https://youtu.be/NTxzYHQiY5c
Duration: 52:00

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[00:03] I told a whole story about what it's like to be a pilot and what it's like to do that and what it's like to lead men into that over and over and over again. And I just felt like that perspective as a historian, as a veteran. Um, and and really like as a woman, there's not a lot of women that do this too. I could tell those stories. And I feel like I learned because I have friends who can't tell their stories that I will lean into the discomfort of talking about myself

[00:35] and tell their stories because their stories deserve to be told. And I will do that because I'm the one left behind. And I I'm honored to be left behind and tell their stories. Hi, I'm John Kuryaku and welcome back to Deep Focus. You know, it's not often that we have someone who is a bonafide hero uh on the show, but we have such a person today. And not only is she a

[01:06] hero, at least in my estimation, not only does she have a wonderful story to tell about wartime and what it was like going into war in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, but she has a fascinating story about her postmilitary career. Jennifer Benny was a helicopter pilot. She had a great career, an important career, and a career in which she accomplished a great many things. We're going to talk about that. But then after her military career, she decided to focus on history.

[01:37] The same kind of history that I like. So, I'm not going to tell her story. I'm going to let her tell her story. Jennifer, welcome to the show. It's good to see you. >> Thank you for having me. It's good to see you, too. >> So, I want to talk first about your decision to join the military. Do you have a military tradition in your family, or was this something you just decided was the right thing to do? My parents are both uh mil Air Force uh they're Air Force veterans. They're Air Force Security Police. I was born at in

[02:10] Fateville, North Carolina. My parents were stationed at Pope, but I was born at Fort Bragg because the Army Hospital was the only hospital there. And uh and it's interesting because my mom was one of the first female security police in in the Air Force. and she was the actually the first one in Aviato, Italy. And uh she met my dad. My mom's from Queens, New York, uh raised in Jackson Heights, went to PS69 Bryant High School. My dad is a small town

[02:42] Pennsylvania boy from the outskirts of Pittsburgh. A big cornfed, you know, he his claim to fame was his high school football team. Won the entire state championship for Pennsylvania. >> What What town was that? It's Houston, Pennsylvania. It's south of Pittsburgh. I actually went to the same high school because when my father got out of the military, we moved back to be close to family. I graduated with 69 people. That's how big this high school is. And they won the entire state championship for Pennsylvania. So that was his big

[03:14] claim. But he's a big guy, 63, 240, big guy, a lineman. And so he meets my mother in in Italy. Doesn't think women should be in the military. Thinks that they make everyone weaker. that he they have to watch out for the women. My mom stood up. Queens, New York said, I you if you have a problem with that, then you shouldn't be here because I'm doing my job, you need to do yours, not focus on me. And they got married three months later. So those are my parents, right? And so when my mom was in they from Avano, they

[03:45] got stationed at uh at Pope and my mom was thinking of getting out of the military. She had just had she had me, she had my brother 18 months later and a general was walking around. my mother again, kind of poster child for the women in the in the military at the time. And so much so that she was testing out the new maternity uniforms. They didn't even have them at the time for the military. And a general had asked her, "What could I do?" Because she was like, "I'm thinking of getting out. I just had kids." And he goes, "What could I do to make you stay in the military?" And she goes, "If I had orders to Hawaii, I'd stay in." So three

[04:17] months later, my mom had orders to Bellow's Air Force Base in Hawaii, which is the recreational base. If you know anything about it, it's all cabins. Obama would stay there. They have a presidential cabin there. Uh and so my father also got orders to Bellows. Uh Magnum PI would film on Bellows while while uh it was there because the the public couldn't come on. My mom was a personal bodyguard for Tom Celich, right? So I'm a little kid not knowing anything, right? And I'm like, "Oh, Tom, you know, I thought his name was Fabric.

[04:48] I mean, a Magnum." And he would carry me around. But it's this time we moved, we got orders after that to Wyoming and I saw the Thunderbirds for the first time and I said, "I'm going to do that. I'm going to fly jets." And if you know anything about my maiden name was Mitchell. So if you know anything about Top Gun, right, I I was the real Lieutenant Mitchell, Naval Aviator Lieutenant Mitchell. So my my I was

[05:18] never married in the military. So my name the entire time was Mitchell. And so Jets, Jets, Jets, Jets. I'm going to go Air Force. So my father gets out of the military in Wyoming. We move back to Pittsburgh. I go for the Navy scholarship. I go for the air the military scholarship to Penn State. And I went to the Air Force first. And the Air Force said, "You have to major in math. We love you. We think you're great, but you have to major in math." And I was like, uh, I'm not sure if I want math. One floor up was the Navy. And I said, what what can you guys

[05:50] offer? And they said, we love you. We would love for you to be a pilot. Uh, major what you want. And I said, I'm going to go Navy. So that's why I completely changed to Navy. Still jets though. Still wanted to fly jets. So between your junior and senior year of ROC, I had a full scholarship to Penn State ROC. Uh, they send you to an aircraft carrier to see what you would want to do in the in the military. Right. I got sent to the Eisenhower in the Mediterranean 1998. >> Eisenhower. It's a city on the water.

[06:22] >> Yes. And it was I flew into Nice. Like it's my first time going to Europe. I flew into Nice. I met the ship in in Cans, right? I saw where the Can's film festival was. I'm like, "This is amazing." and met the ship and they attached me to the helicopter squadron because they had a female pilot and they wanted me to interact with the female pilot. I'm like helicopters. I didn't even know the Navy had helicopters. I thought that was Army. And on an aircraft carrier, the helicopter job is

[06:52] pretty much one of the most boring jobs. You're the first to launch, the last to land. You fly what they call starboard D. So it's a starboard, looks like a D. You fly in a circle on the starboard side of the ship and you're waiting for someone to crash, right? You're the first. That's why they're first one launched so they can do all their air ops and then you're the last one to land. So when all the air ops are done, you land and you're just you're airborne in case something happens. Right. >> I didn't know they did that. That's the first time I've ever heard that. >> Yes. And so I was like, helicopters, whatever. I want to fly in the F-14. So

[07:24] I had gotten all of my qualifications before I left. And now I I will cry out this. I'm a swimmer and I'm not just a swimmer. I'm a butterflyer. So, I have very strong arms, strong shoulders. So, I had to do all the parachute stuff where they drag you through the pool and you have to unleash yourself. I had to do the dunkers and I got all the qualifications to if I was to get a hop in a jet. I was ready to do that. I made sure I had all of it before I went out on this midship and cruise. This is

[07:54] 1998. No women in any of these jud squadrons, right? women had just been allowed into combat three years earlier, but it wasn't like I tell people it was like it was all these women waiting, right? They they allowed it, but there weren't women doing it. There were a couple women who had qualified, but they weren't deployed or anything like that. And so I walk into and this is the Jolly Rogers, so they're the skull and the crossbones, right? And uh they they took no midshipman. Usually midshipman get

[08:25] attached to a squadron. I was attached to the Hilo Squadron. I think there was S3s that took another midshipman. Uh I walk into this F-14 ready room. I sit right in the front row. And if you any know anything about a ready room on an aircraft carrier, the front row is CO, exo, opso, admin. It's all the high ranking officers. I sit right in the front row as the commanding officer is speaking at the podium and he looks at me in very colorful language and tells me to get out of his ready room. and I

[08:56] say, "No, I'm not leaving." I'm like, "This is my dream and I want to fly." I tell people a lot of times, "My smart mouth either gets me something pretty amazing or in a lot of trouble." And this was a moment, one of those defining moments in my career. And he looked at me and he goes in another color, "Where do you go to school?" And I said, "Sir, I go to Penn State." And he goes, "Big 10, you're flying." Because he went to Indiana in the Big 10. And that moment he did that, every guy

[09:27] in that squadron treated me fantastic. I was allowed to go into the the Jolly Rogers anytime I wanted. They gave me their patches. I flew in an F-14 off a carrier, sat in the back seat like goose. We the co flew at the same time in his jet, played the Indiana fight song, and I was I was like, "This is it. I'm going to fly jets." We caught the trap on the way in. It was amazing, right? I I it was one of the greatest moments in my aviation career. Like I just it was amazing. Everything I wanted. I knew this was what I wanted to

[09:58] do. And like I said, they were he was great with me. They were all great. Three days later, I'm in the Hilo because again, I could choose what flights I wanted to fly every day on in the helicopter because I'm attached to that squadron. And I just sit in the back with the rescue swimmers, right? And I'll be like, I'll go on this flight today. Get off the carrier. Something fun to do. We're in Starboard D. I'm back with the rescue swimmers. There's two of them back there. We're kind of just goofing around and we hear aircraft in the water. Like you hear the thing that you're like, "Oh my gosh." And I'm

[10:28] My eyes got so big. We all And they start throwing their gear on. Two F-14s had hit each other. >> Oh my god. >> They had clipped wings just like um they were trying to dog fight, which we don't really practice as much anymore because there's not really a country that can fly as well as us. It's not an ally. So they clipped wings. They got too close. The pilot I had flown with actually was one of them. He made it back to the carrier. The other one went into the Mediterranean.

[10:59] And just like in Top Gun, the pilot died. He hit his head on the canopy, got wrapped up in the parachute and drowned. We rescued the NFO naval flight officer like Goose who sat in the back. When you sit on an ejection seat, you wear these shin straps that pull your legs up under the seat because you're basically sitting on a rocket, right? Well, one of them had failed and he basically saw his leg shoot up right in by his face. So, he had broken his leg basically and um was barely attached and so when they got

[11:30] him into the hilo, he's screaming. The rescue swimmer splinting it and wrapping it and we're going back to the carrier and then they eventually will fly him to Turkey to save his leg. I help with the stretcher, right? Because they get them and and I'm again, I'm a midshipman. I know nothing, but I'm wearing a flight suit. I'm in the back of this hilo. I'm watching everything. And I just help with the stretcher as we get to the carrier. And he looks up at me and he said, "When I heard the rotors coming, I knew I was going to be okay." And that's

[18:17] flat and if you're serious, you can do it in six weeks." And so I learned to fly in six weeks. Now landing is hard. Taking off is easy. Flying the plane, the plane wants to stay in the air. It flies itself. Landing is hard. And what I'm going to ask you about in a second is >> flying a plane is one thing. Flying a helicopter is an entirely different animal. >> So you're training in a fixed wing

[18:48] aircraft. >> And then what? So, everyone who goes to flight school trains in fixed wing. Um, and again, it's to weed you out. >> And, and what do you what kind of fixed wing are you training on? >> A T34 mentor. You probably have seen them. There's they're on the flight deck of the Intrepid. Uh, they're painted orange and white. Like, stay away from me, right? Students are in here. Uh, it's it's a it's a turborop. It's a pretty powerful aircraft because I'll do my I'll do all my aerobatics in that

[19:18] aircraft. I learned how to fly form in that aircraft. I do a cross country in that aircraft. That's what you all everyone does this in primary flight school and uh it's a lot of testing beforehand like you said it's a lot of like aerodynamics and thermodynamics and weather engines. They throw a lot of testing quickly at you in eight weeks and you fail to you're out and 80% is passing. So that's how they first weed you out and then it's a lot of physical fitness tests, right? And that's that's

[19:48] even before you fly. A lot of physical fitness tests and eyes, all those things for pilots, right? Color blindness, eyes, all those things that could also disqualify you. And then you start to fly fix wing, which I like again, first flight they show you. Second flight you take off, third flight you land. And you brief these flights for an hour before you even get in the cockpit. You have to talk through every procedure. You have to have studied them. And I always would get like the hardest guys, like the

[20:21] people who had the reputation of being very difficult. And I remember being like, "Okay, got to do it, Jen. You got to do it." Right? So, I would just put my head down and study and learn and get in there and just give it my best. And I think they want to see that, right? They want They're trying to weed out people who are not confident in themselves because you want a confident pilot, right? You want a pilot who's like, "I can do that. I'll figure it out. We'll get we'll get in. We'll get out. We'll

[20:51] we'll get them. We'll save them." And so, I think they're looking for that foundation of you as a as even as a learner. And so, yeah. And I loved it. I learned it quickly, right? And I just I loved being in the sky. And I tell people my first solo was my 13th flight is your first solo. And like you said, we fly every day. And if you I think you become a better pilot flying every day. It's a lot of studying. >> It's a lot of work. Yes. Right.

[21:21] >> But it's just like driving. If you drive every day, you're going to be better. And same thing with flying. It's a like you're studying your butt off. But that 13th that 13th flight, you're solo. You take off. You go to another field. You do five touchand goes and they watch you and they grade you. And then you have like an hour to go back to the, you know, Pensacola, your original field. And uh I climbed up in close to the clouds and I could see my shadow on the cloud and I could see just me in the

[21:52] cockpit like no instructor and I put my hand on the windscreen and I had never felt such a sense of accomplishment in my life. >> Like I did it. I did this from nothing. >> I from nothing. my dream. I brought it all the way through to fruition. I can do this, right? And that's just my first solo, you know. From there, you learn arerobatics, which is so much fun. You know, spins and dives and rolls, and then you do two solos doing that on your

[22:24] own in the cockpit. So, you're pulling G's and you're making sure you don't pass out because you're flying solo. Uh, I loved flying form. You learn how to tuck in, right? So when you see the Blue Angels, when you see the Thunderbirds, how they're tucked into each other, looking at a sight picture. I tell people, you never take your eyes off the other aircraft, you're constantly looking at them. You don't look at your cockpit at all. You're making little movements to keep that sight picture perfect. And the only person navigating is the lead, the one who's looking outside. You're just with them. So you

[22:56] don't even know when you're rolling. You're just so tucked into that sight picture that you're just going. you don't even realize that what you're doing aerobatics wise and so uh I loved form and then from there you graduate primary intermediate is your cross country and then you go to advanced and advanced is rotary wing and yes learning to hover is divine because it is hovering is little micro movements they call it I'm stirring the

[23:28] soup right because to hover to hold a hover is these little micro movements to keep you in a nice balanced hover. And uh you learn all these things with helicopters because you have to learn how to auto rotate. Auto rotation can save your life. It's the only way to save the aircraft from an engine failure. You practice auto rotation every time you fly. And so it was a different animal, but I loved it. I loved you're low, you're slow, you do a

[23:59] lot of land navigation and uh I knew my job in the Navy would be a lot more saving lives than taking lives. And so, but so this is all happening in 2000 and I just finished flight school the beginning of September 2001 and again my mom's from New York. I'm done with flight school. It's September 4th. I walk into my commanding officer's

[24:30] office and I said I I we had talked before. They had never had a female pilot at all in Japan. I wanted to be that female pilot in Japan. My CEO said, "If you're first, Jen, if you're first, I'll make sure you're the first female pilot in Japan." I walk into his office September 4th. I said, "How's it looking?" He goes, "You're first. You're going to Japan." I'm like, "Awesome. September 11th happens, right? My parents are coming in for my winging September 14th, my mom calls me. I'm

[25:01] sleeping in because I'm done with flight school. Uh I pick up the phone. My mom's from New York, right? And she's like, "Turn on the television." And I saw we we the first plane had hit, right? And that's when I was like, "What? What's going on? Did they was that a mistake? Were they was it was it out of fuel? Was it the engine failure? and they crashed in and then we saw the second plane hit on I watched it on TV with my mother and I said, "Mom, I got to go." I knew in that moment it was an attack. I knew it. And

[25:33] um my commanding officer shut down the base, right? All the bases were shut down. Called us all, told us to meet him at a Waffle House off base. My whole winging class, I'm winging with about 20 people and we meet at the Waffle House. and he's like, "Okay, uh, bases have been shut down." This is when we knew everything. We already the Pentagon had been attacked. And so, um, Shanksville, the crash had happened in Shanksville. And so, we all knew something was going on. And he's like, "You're anyone who's

[26:05] coming to your winging, we need all copies of documentation. The cars will be searched. You only get one vehicle across. Uh, so who's ever coming to your winging, we need to all that documentation now. Orders are being pulled." And he looked at me and he goes, "Jen, they need you in San Diego." And I said, "Yes, sir." He goes, "That's where you're going." I said, "Okay." So, I didn't even question it, right? I didn't even question what helicopter I was flying, what was needed. I I tell people, I joined the Navy to see the

[26:35] world, to get college paid for, to fly, and all of a sudden now I'm going to be fighting, right, fighting a war. Now, I knew that could be a possibility, but it was not what I had specifically joined up for, but I was ready to do my job. And uh so September 14th happens, my parents come to my winging. It's fantastic. And then I'm supposed to ship out to San Diego to start Seir School. So, we'll talk about SER school waterboarding, right? >> Um I'm set to start Seir School in

[27:06] October 2001. I go up to ground zero about two weeks after it happened and uh I take my cousin Marissa because again we're from New York so my mom's sister is my godmother who I'm and they live in New Jersey. So, we get up there about midnight. We walked from Penn Station. It's all quiet, right? And we get up there and that's when they have the big spotlights and there's still all the missing posters. And I walk up to a cop

[27:37] and I said, "Where can I get a New York PD patch?" And he goes, "All the stores are closed right now." And I said, "Okay." I said, "I'm a Navy pilot. I'm about to ship out to San Diego. I would like to fly with a New York PD patch on my arm. I'm allowed. You know, you have to wear the flag on your one uh shoulder, but you can fly anything you want on your other arm. And he goes, "You're a pilot." I said, "Yes." And he ripped it off his coat. >> Wow. >> And he handed it to me. I still have it. >> Wow. Yeah. >> I Yeah. I flew with it every mission. >> Wow.

[28:08] >> So, uh, from there I went to San Diego to SEIR school. And I always tell people, so SEIR is the best and worst training I got in the military, right? I learned >> explain to our viewers what what SEIR is. >> So it's survival, evasion, rescue, and escape. It's how you would interact as a prisoner of war or if you were shot down and the possibility of you being

[28:38] captured as a prisoner of war. And you learn what your rights are under the Geneva Convention, which I didn't know, right? You learn, they teach you how to be a prisoner of war because in Vietnam, men were captured and tortured and they felt so ashamed of themselves because of what they divulged that they didn't want to come home, right? And they were so ashamed to come home that they don't they they felt that they didn't prepare them for that. And so SEIR is to prepare

[29:10] you for this. And so you learn uh what your rights are. You learn how to be interrogated. You learn what kind of things they will do to you, the psychological warfare, and then they take you in the field to kind of test the that knowledge that you learned, right? And we all kind of think of it as prisoner of war training. And we all know we're going to get our butts kicked, right? That's kind of what we There's no easy way to get through Seir,

[29:40] you're going to be tortured is what it comes down to. >> And when I went through, they waterboarded and they made it very clear in Seir school. If you were waterboarded, you died. If you're waterboarded, it means that you didn't do what we taught you and you didn't because they teach you like you have two types and I'm sure you know all this, John. You have two types of information. You have critical information 24hour what your mission was and you have long-term information what

[30:10] your job is and what you know and they're trying to get both of that information from you and your job is to act like you have it. You can't get it because you're so traumatized, right? So you're still an asset to them. They won't kill you because you have this information they want. You just can't access it because it just everything is happening right now. So your job is to kind of act like I know it. Give them a

[30:41] little tidbit of something so they know she definitely or he knows what they're talking about, but I just can't get to it. So what they teach you is you can't say nothing. You can't say, "I'm not telling you anything. I know nothing." You get your butt kicked and you still know nothing. Because they're just going to kill you because they're not going to get anything from you. And then you can't give them everything because they like they got everything from them. Then they're just going to kill you. So your job is to keep alive. Keep alive with honor. And you probably know all this, right? And so they teach you when they

[31:12] put the gun to your head. This is your utmost. This is when you're at your utmost. You're about to break. You're about to die. Give them a piece of information. Let them know something. And so when that happened to me, right, I get my butt kicked. I tell people I got punched in the face and my ear started ringing and the person was yelling and I'm like, "Wow, it really is like the movies." They're like, "Wow, your ear just rings." And you don't hear anything coming out of their mouth. I was just so shocked. I was just like,

[31:42] "Wow, that really does happen. It sounds like a a you know, a artillery or something went off in your ear. It's so loud with the ringing if you get hit that no matter if the person's screaming, you can't make out any word they're saying." So that was me. It was mostly shock factor, right? And uh but she put the gun to my head. She put the 9 millimeter to my head and asked me what kind of aircraft I was on. They teach you a whole scenario before you go. And I told her, I think it was a and

[32:12] I told her the number and then she took the gun away and put it away. And that's when I knew this is what they're teaching you. But if you didn't say that and she pulls the trigger, you get waterboarded. And I could hear people being waterboarded. I could hear it. And I said, "I'm not mm- I learned." And so I never got waterboarded, but I could hear those guys. And they were screaming. They were coughing. And I'm like, "Did anyone pay attention in class?" That's what I felt like when I was like, "Did anyone pay attention in

[32:43] class?" They said, "If you get waterboarded, you didn't make it." Right? Like that's not a good thing. So I knew I learned how to do this game. Now, I tell people I was very lucky because I went through SER school with two other women and they are very uh unpy. They if a guy's not answering questions, they pull a woman out and they start to hit her and make the guy watch them hit her. And there was one girl who was smaller than me and cried a lot. And I hate to say it, they pulled her out from almost everything. And so I

[33:15] got lucky because you get hit so much. I tell people, your face is just numb by the end. Like you're just like, "Yep, okay, another hit." I had bruises up and down my chest. I think you talked about how they slam you against the wall, right? Like they just slam my head against the wall and they interrogate you with the big light and they teach you all this stuff in Seir School. Like they're going to interrogate you with the big light and you know and they're going to ask you questions. They ask me like very pinpointed questions like

[33:45] what's my designator and I'm like how do they know that word? And they asked me what my security clearance was. And thank God, >> John, I had just I had just upped it. Like I was in between. So I didn't know what I had. That's right. >> And so I kept saying, "I don't know." Because I really didn't know. >> And in the end when I got debriefed, the guy was like, "You were so good about not giving us your clearance." And I'm like, "Well, because I honestly didn't know what it >> Yeah. >> But I It's a lot. It's They

[34:17] >> It's tough. It's traumatic. >> It's traumatic, but I always tell people it's the best. It's the worst training because I really did get my butt kicked and I lost a lot of weight, but I learned a lot. And I learned how to take it. I learned um how I would react. I learned how other people were going to react, right? And how will you ever know unless you get into it? But being a woman, um, I learned too flying in the Middle East that more than likely if I'm

[34:49] captured, I will probably starve to death. They probably won't even waste a bullet on me to kill me because they don't think I'm worth even interrogating. They will put me in a cell and not feed me and I probably just starve to death and die. That's what I learned. So I learned my greatest chance of survival is another woman of another Middle Eastern woman because they see westernized women as hope. And so if I flew with a religious symbol, they could

[35:21] relate to that and my greatest chance would they would be helping me escape. They would, you know, sympathize with me, empathize with me. They would release me and help me escape. That would be my greatest chance of survival. So, I flew with a cross um all the time. And I learned like even after my first deployment, I tell people as a blonde, I got my hair pulled all the time. They just don't see blondes. And I don't I tell people they I did they didn't do it to be I knew they weren't doing it to be

[35:52] mean. They just couldn't believe I was really a blonde. Right. >> Right. And they were just like, "Is she really a blonde?" And they would call me Brook Shields. And I would be like, "Broo Shields, call me like Jennifer Aniston or something." I'm like, but uh but I learned a lot about, you know, the the different dynamics of where you're flying over and you know, we learn about blood chits and things like that. Like, let me ask you about that if I could interrupt you for a moment. >> Sure. Um, each time I went to Afghanistan after 911,

[36:24] you you fly into usually I'd fly into Kabell, sometimes directly into Bram, but then to go elsewhere around the country, you have to take a helicopter for the most part. >> And when you're landing, you have to evade or you have to be prepared to evade rocket attacks. Mhm. >> And so when we're landing, we're doing this corkcrew, a very tight corkcrew like circle. I I laugh now in retrospect because to me, you know, the the side

[36:54] doors of the of the helicopter open, so you're looking out, you're spinning in this tight corkcrew. People around me were throwing up and it didn't bother my stomach for some reason. And I just thought it was really cool. It was explained to me why that was so important because people really do fire stinger missiles at you or rocket propelled grenades at you. >> That's our biggest threat. >> Tell us about about training for that and then actually doing it.

[37:25] >> So I was in Iraq and I um and I was we did so much. I tell people I felt like I was in a Tom Clansancy >> Oh yeah. movie. >> Yes. Right. In real >> I did all the things. I flying night vision every night. Seal teams in and out. Right. Cover ground air cover. And I I have a a busted blood vessel in my eye right now. I only ever got that in Iraq on NVGs because of the eye strain, right? And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, am I getting stressed again?" But it's it's funny 20 years later. But uh no, so like

[37:56] you said, our biggest threat as a helicopter because we're low and slow are the the self-propelled missiles uh man pads, right? The ones they can fly off of their arm off their shoulders. There's two types of missiles, heat seekers and radar seekers. And so I can tell right away in my helicopter what I'm being lit up by, but I only have a moment, a moment to react. So you practice it every time. If it is a heat seeker, you're going to turn right into

[38:27] where it's coming from because the coldest part of my helicopter is the nose. I'm gonna turn and dive and just so they can't see me. So even if they fire it, it's going to go high. It's not going to it's not going to hit the heat of an of the hilo. They also love if you can get the sun behind you. So turn in, go low. If it's nighttime, oh, just get low and turn into it because again, the coldest part is the nose of the helicopter. If it's radar seeking, your

[38:59] job, you have basically like a radar screen. Think of it. Your job is to fill that screen with metal as quick as you can. That's why you're cork screwing, right? Fill that. So, you juke, right? You juke and you try to fill that screen as quick as you can with metal. So, it can't pick out where you actually are. Doesn't have the time to coordinate on you, right? You're not staying in one position and you're not keeping that relative motion. And so, that is why you corkcrew. You're filling up this um

[39:33] screen with as much of metal, you know, radar detection as you can. Uh your most vulnerable time is landing because you're coming low and slow. You don't have time to auto rotate if something's going to happen. So that's why we would do those types of landings. Plus, we used to learn in flight school to hover then land. And in the sand of the Middle East, we would have issues what they call brown out. a helicopter would push the sand up into the screen. You

[40:03] couldn't see and helicopters were crashing. That happened a lot in the beginning. And so we learned right away, you just plant it. You come in and you hit the deck, right? And so we would practice that every time. And I'll be honest with you, John, I flew with so many people and again, I loved helicopters. I just had a great feel for it. I flew with so many people be like, "That is the best approach I've ever seen, Mitchell." And that's how I knew. I'm like, I am really good at this. And I I you know,

[40:34] in the military, I tell people all the time, especially when I got into my squadron, my call sign was Yoko because I broke up the band, right? First woman. Um I was told by a lot of people to keep my mouth shut, right? But people wanted to hear from me and they would be keep your mouth shut, Mitchell. like and I would so I didn't talk a lot about when I was going through you know the deployments we didn't take photographs of ourselves we didn't post pictures of ourselves we didn't talk

[41:05] about our jobs we did our jobs right I was studying my butt off I'm still learning I'm still testing I'm still learning parts of the helicopter if there's an emergency how can I save it right like I'm still I'm so every day working out, making sure I'm staying fit. Uh I always thought if the if I crash and I can run, the Navy Seals are going to be held up by my pace. So, how fast can I run? So, I always stayed in great shape for that. Like, I really

[41:36] thought a lot about what I was doing and and how I was doing it. Plus, I learned early on being one of the few women that I'm also setting the modeling to the other women and to my men what this looks like, right? And I would hear from my men like, you know, we didn't like women in the military, Mitchell, but we like you. And I learned early on, I really don't care what your opinion is of women in the military. >> It's liberating to not care what other people, >> but I'm not going to be your example, but why women shouldn't be. That's how I

[42:07] kind of felt about it. like I don't care what your opinion is, but you'll never use me as any example for why women shouldn't be. And that's kind of how I saw it. >> Um I I'm gonna I'm going to brag for a moment. Um I have a lifelong love of cemeteries. I love the the piece and I love the architecture. But what I love the most is the fact that everybody has a story. Everybody, everybody has a life

[42:39] worth living. And so, one of the great joys I have in life is just wandering around cemeteries, looking up random people to see what their story is. This is something that you've done. I've got a book coming out in the next u well the next month or so um on the historic cemeteries of Washington DC. But you like cemeteries, too. And you Well, you know what? I'm gonna let you tell your story. Tell us about what you're working on right now

[43:09] and how it connects your love of cemeteries and your experience in the military. >> So, after my two deployments, right, my initial commitment in the military is up. I saw those moms kissing their kids goodbye for deployment. I wanted to be a mom and I didn't want to do that. So, I got out after my initial commitment and I got married to an active duty Navy officer. He's still active duty now. And I had children, right? Because I'm later in life. So, I had three kids right

[43:39] away. And then I decided, what do I want to do with my life? And I, especially in Iraq, John, I was like, what is the story here? Right? Like, you get out there and you're like, what's the history here? There's history here. And we don't learn that going out, right? We don't know what's the big beef and what's the fight and I want to know more about that about America, right? I want to know why do historians say this is what happened? How do they quantify this? How do you primary source this? And so I used my GI Bill to get a

[44:10] master's degree of history and I I learned how historians do that. And I learned everyone has a story and I learned that the best places to tell a story is is not only where we start but where we end. Right. And even Arlington is so much of a story of America. Just that space in DC is so much a story of America that I wanted to tell those stories. And so I started Walk with History, which is

[44:40] takes you on location. I like that it's on location so you can step into the steps of history giants and be there. And so I started with Arlington's movie stars because I found that nobody really knew Marino O'Hara was buried at Arlington. >> That's right. And James Coburn and people like that. >> And no one had put her on YouTube. No one had connected the dots. And I said, I'm going to do this because I'm a big John Wayne fan. I'm going to tell Marino Harris story. So we went there. I went

[45:11] to her grave, told her story. Why is she in Arlington? Right. And then the Arlington story came out and then I wanted to do to the Tuskegee Airmen there and tell their story. I wanted to do the women of Arlington. I wanted to do the Band of Brothers there. And no one had done that, right? Everyone loves the Band of Brothers, but no one and then when I did Masters of the Air, I did that before this book even before the show came out. When I did Egan, who is the main guy, he's buried with his wife, who was a wasp, and no one had put

[45:42] that together. He married another female pilot and I was. And so as a historian, those are the stories that are like the real stories of these people. And with the military background, I wore my flight jacket and I talked about her being a Wasp and him being a pilot. So I felt like I could tell more of the connection that these two had. Why are they at Arlington? And what was at, you know, the mighty ETH and what what were these men doing at the time? and what

[46:12] kind of heroism that looked like to fly daylight bombing missions during World War II. So, I told a whole story about what it's like to be a pilot and what it's like to do that and what it's like to lead men into that over and over and over again. And I just felt like that perspective as a historian, as a veteran, um, and and really like as a woman, there's not a lot of women that do this too, I could tell those stories. And I feel like I learned because I have

[46:43] friends who can't tell their stories that I will lean into the discomfort of talking about myself and tell their stories because their stories deserve to be told. And I will do that because I'm the one left behind and I I'm honored to be left behind and tell their stories. >> Well, this this has book written all over it. Uh no pun intended. Um you give tours, walking tours, lectures, any

[47:13] plans for a book, any plans to maybe pitch something in Hollywood? >> So, it's so funny you say that. Um, I'm am writing a book right now about the Wasps of World War II, right? >> Very much like a League of Their Own. It's kind of a historical fiction because it's not quite what happened, but I take bits of all these women from these different classes from all over America and how they're so different and how they at first are very much against each other because you see that in

[47:44] flight school too with other women. Women against women can be very powerful. uh and they learn that they're sabotaging themselves and that this this whole program won't pass unless they pass together and they have to come together as a group to become this first class of female pilots. The Wasps flew every military aircraft that was produced during World War II. as they were coming off the assembly lines as fast as they were coming, these female pilots fied them all around America and it opened up a thousand men to go fight

[48:16] uh thousand pilots to go fight in World War II because they stayed home and fedied all these aircraft and I don't think people know so much about their story. These women pilots who did it, they flew the B29, they flew every aircraft and so it's it's their story. It's a basically these women who overcome their differences to prove that women can do this in military flight training and they become that first winging class that's going to fly these aircraft. And I it's really much like it's a historical fiction, but I think

[48:46] it's kind of a story America needs right now that we're stronger together than a than apart and then if we have a common goal that we really there's nothing we can't do. >> Amen to that. So tell us how people can read more, learn more about what you're doing, connect with you. How do they do that? >> So Walk with History has new videos every Wednesday, Walking Wednesday. And and like you said, John, I like to tell

[49:18] stories, veteran stories. I'm actually doing a story right now on Michael Murphy. Michael Murphy was the only Penn Stater to receive the Medal of Honor. I'm a Penn Stater. Uh, I'm class of 99. He was 98. You would know Michael Murphy from Lone Survivor. He is the Navy Seal OIC officer in charge of Operation Red Wings. And Michael Murphy will expose himself to enemy fire to make the radio call to save his men and ultimately will be what saves um the the lone survivor

[49:51] to save uh his life. But he is fatally wounded in that process. He does die on uh June 28th, 2005. And then he's posumously awarded the Medal of Honor. Penn State does have a uh a park dedicated to him, but I feel like more people need to know his story. This man who went to Penn State, who decided to become a Navy Seal, who did all of this, it's awarded the Medal of Honor. I think more people need to know his name and what he did. So again, people who can't

[50:22] tell their story, I want to tell his story. Um, our lives paralleled each other. I tell people all the time like I was 99, he was 98. He went to Pensacola for OCS. He was going to go to law school, then decided to go to OCS and become a SEAL. I was in Pensacola for flight school. He went to San Diego for Buds. He graduates in October 2001. I'm in San Diego for SEIR school, right? He gets stationed in San Diego. I get stationed in San Diego. I don't know if we ever met. I don't ever remember meeting him. It seems to

[50:54] me the very classic uh courage under fire. Remember when he sees her in the helicopter and he remembers seeing her? I feel like Murphy and I may have seen each other at some point, but I didn't learn about him till after he died. >> Well, Jennifer Benny, thank you so much for joining us. This was I wish we had another hour to carry on this conversation because we we just barely scratched the surface. But thanks very much for being with us. >> Yes. And like I said, Walk with History
